Opinion Piece: Why you shouldn't post photos publicly - Page 3
CC has some funny hobbies.
Lol, I hope you didn't click the images tabNuggs wrote:Also, I had to google what a "circlejerk" was.
CC has some funny hobbies.
In internet slang, a "circlejerk" is when a group of people with a shared interest get together and congratulate one another for sharing that interest.
Again with the CC vs UEGA etc....not in any way the point.
I put a "No Trespassing" sign on the fence. Now no one will enter.
+1Nuggs wrote:I had my doubts about this thread, as the opening post (whilst making some good points) was provocative to say the least, and the responses should have been no surprise to anyone.
There have been some good points made on either side - and I hope ya'll keep it a bit civil, as all explorers may learn something from reading this thread.
Think everyone is entitled to an opinion. I for one am wary of the rise of Google who probably have the NSA at their back, but then I hope I'm wrong for everyone's sake.
And mpi - wish I could take pics like you, they are great. I've kind of given up on taking good pics for now, it gets in the way of the experience. That's just my opinion again.
Keep calm and carry on...
Just a harmless explorer. No need to waste taxes checking me 
Keve's a top bloke.mpi wrote:Keve wrote:stuff
You're a good dude with sensible input in to this thread. I personally miss seeing your photographs, they were always interesting.
fkn' A, manmaggot wrote:Keve's a top bloke.
In terms of recommended policies regarding photos of Urbex exploits - what should the baseline be?
Should something of a charter or guideline created to give users an idea of what's ok to post and what's not ok?
Eg.
• No location details - that stuff is for PMs - this seems fair enough
• No location details in photo - signage - or visible landmarks - I have to admit I've triangulated some of the locations posted here just through googling certain area names and then cross referencing them through google maps and streetview. So it's not super hard - It's how I found the Beehive casement before it got super welded up.
• Are faces a big deal? I have a lot of random models in my shots and would love to post them here however I'm not sure if I should because I'm not sure if faces be should shown insofar as -
- non-tresspassing urbexing of abandonments
- IDing people on the forums in case the fuzz decides to read up on kids going down drains and roofs after god-forbid some kind of fatality gets published in the media. NSW and Australian governments are such knee-jerk nanny states when it comes to a well publicised injury/potential for injury/fatality to new or un-researched subcultures and technology - eg - laser pointers, airsoft guns, anything that looks remotely dangerous etc.
- Obviously no blatant illegal activity - Graf/Vandalism/Looting - it only encourages people to damage sites and not leave them in the condition they found them.
Should there be a board where photographers in this particular community can post up their photos? (with relevant privacy rights for trusted members etc...) I'm new here so maybe there already is.
Anyway - would love to hear thoughts as I'd like to do the right thing either way.
Even deciding on guidelines is not an easy task for a group to agree on, and everyone will always have their own opinion.
To give you an example of guidelines, the Cave Clan code of ethics includes the following clauses:
"#1 - I agree to explain to non-members that I take exploring that our locations should be preserved by NOT placing locations in public view and leaving places as they found them. "
"#3 - I will not distribute any sensitive information such as-
details that may lead to prosecution; entrance locations; upcoming expo/event details; ..."
"I agree to remove any entrance locations that are publicly viewable online that I possibly can even if they were posted before I joined the Cave Clan."
"Note - This one is really self explanatory. If, for example, you have photos that don't giveaway the location then keep the photos, but drop any entrance location descriptions."
"#5 - I will not attract attention to *stealth (aka Travel Light) locations & always leave them the way I found them.
A stealth location is a place where it must be left as it was found.
Reason: Once security or the governing authority knows we are entering certain locations, they may block it up and/or increase patrols, or try and charge people within the Cave Clan. This includes graffiti or dusties, removing any items, or damaging any property in places where doing so would jeopardize the location (such as an abandoned building) for further exploration. Please check with the Cave Clan that there is not already a known way in. Traces of gaining entry must be minimal to such an extent that they will in no way impact what so ever on future entry to the site."
"#7 - I will spend my time as a member or associate of the Cave Clan in a positive manner.
This includes agreeing to-
...
(8) not include images or footage of Cave Clan members online without their permission."
"Notes (8) - Some members don't mind having a public online presence, however many do.
There is also the potential legal ramifications that may result."
Of course these are not the rules of exploring, but they're the rules the clan has decided will help preserve locations. Personally I think they should go a little bit further.
As I said, once you're aware of the less-obvious ways that posting photos can harm our ability to do what we do, it comes down to common sense.
Bency wrote:While we are on this topic..
Yesterday I saw a Sydney Photography based Facebook page release the exact locations of a few abandoned places, eg Dunlop Factory and a Tram shed around the suburbs close to me. Surely if your a photographer and want to visit these kinds of places, shouldn't you take it to yourself to research or even go out looking?
While I understand it is a photography page, releasing the details of places that are already littered with graffiti and extremely damaged, a public page should not release locations like that. Especially since this tram shed has heritage items, that are most likely now no better than a piece of scrap. Now that its online, its in the open for ANYONE to see, including vandals & immature teenagers. And once its online, it will be forever. Some people don't seem to understand that nowadays.
/rantover
I told this person of the page off (I think they're called visual cocaine or something. They have compiled a list which is publicly available)
Spades
x2theedge wrote:I think the main point isn't about taking or posting photos, but more about what details are put into the photos. Tag or describe a photo with something like "urbex", "rooftop" or "abandonment", it's going to get found and swept up by google etc... for all to see.
Tell you what, those search crawlers are mighty annoying as well. Have to deal with them at my day job all the time. We end up blocking them in the end.
Something to be conscious of before posting anything now.
Spades
So did I ! Hahaha. And yes they have, I understand doing that for public locations like a beach etc, but abandoned places is just silly seeming as anyone can come across it.Spades wrote:Bency wrote:
I told this person of the page off (I think they're called visual cocaine or something. They have compiled a list which is publicly available)
I can't really contribute anything more than as already been said but just going back a few pages.
It's true he posted a lot but there's more to it. He, with a few other dedicated people discovered a large majority of current and past locations, anyone who knows him will agree he was very sensible and secretive with locations and information. Sensitive stuff was treated accordingly and some has never been posted by anyone outside of the group. Also, things like construction and cranes were sometimes delayed until the location was no longer available.mpi wrote: Also - nothing anyone has posted here or elsewhere (that I've seen) isn't already all over sleepycity. Dsankt was EVERYWHERE before ANY of us and has happily shared his photos for the world to see for YEARS. I don't see anyone writing letters of complaint to him and if they did I'm sure if they did he'd feel much the same as I do - get over it.
I still see it as Ego trippin, sorting self gratification fame from strangers.
Very well put spoz and props to you taking the time to express what 99% of us exploring kats are all about.
Would you and spoz like some time alone?
I must have missed that survey.fawn wrote:Very well put spoz and props to you taking the time to express what 99% of us exploring kats are all about.
- Social media definitely has it's disadvantages but we can't completely bash it, it's more just the idiots of the world that ruin these beautiful places, social media or not. It is always lovely to see the different images that come out of everyone's urbex experiences
I use a few websites to keep me up to date with new places to visit. If I didnt, I think I would have lost interest a while ago. Its all a balance of keeping places discreet without coming off as an arrogant exclusive knob.
Last edited by benderz on 11 Apr 2014, 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
--> Darkday Flickr - Urbex Photos - Albums -- ---> Our Explores Posted List - 2 - UEGA
--> Darkday Flickr - Urbex Photos - Albums -- ---> Our Explores Posted List - 2 - UEGA
Anyway it's only fair that I give you all some context on myself exploring wise. I'm a member of the Cave Clan and even within the group I've got quite a strict view in regards to the posting (or lack therefor
) of photos online, so in short I'm an elitist member of a group that is already considered elitist to begin with by some people outside the clan. I'm also NOT a photographer and I spend a lot of time finding, accessing and whenever possible securing said access to new locations. I then spend even more time taking local, interstate and international explorers to said locations. So that's my bias on the table - it should be pretty obvious that I'm pretty concerned with the integrity of these locations and ultimately the longevity of which we can explore them. While I would certainly never claim that I "own" these locations merely because I was the first person in the Clan to find/access them, I am spending a decent amount of time in/on them over the years, illegally I might add. So the least that I can do is make sure that our usage of said location does not have a detrimental effect or impact the location. This extends not only to me and the people who I take there, it also extends to the people whom visit the location without me. Someone's gotta look after the poor defenceless building or bridge Posting drain shots? Go ahead. Personally I love to see them. There's not a whole lot that the authorities can do to lock up a drain, especially when there are so many entry points. Also, drains aren't really what would be considered "sensitive, critical infrastructure". Nor do they belong to a private person(s)/organisations who have a vested interested in keeping people out (this is a point that I could discuss more but I won't). A non dodgy abandonment (i.e. one that wouldn't suffer if the building manager was to find out that people were exploring it and posting photos of it online), go for gold. In regards to posting photos with people's faces in them - it really comes down to generally courtesy and I know that many people would like to be asked if it's ok to post a photo of them - even if they aren't trespassing/committing crime.
On the flip side of the coin, there are abandonments that I and others would not be ok with were they posted online - for example White Bay Power Station in Sydney. Why? There's already a decent amount of security onsite (including personnel), so they are ACTIVELY trying to keep people out - so if they were to discover that people have been trespassing inside this place, evading security and then posting their exploits online, it's safe to say that security would be increased, people would no longer be able to explore it and fellow explorers that have previously explored the site safely could be subject to detection or arrest (personally I'd properly suss out the place each time, but I think it's fair to say that a decent percentage of people will let their guard down if they have successfully explored a place countless times in the past without any drama).
Live locations - for example the rooftop of a hotel, whether it involves the use of tools considered to be "...used in connection with unauthorised entry"- or whether you can just walk on up there. Last example I promise; Critical infrastructure such as a live/active Bridge-room, or a telecom/cable tunnel. I can guarantee you that if the authorities, governing body etc found out that someone was accessing something that fits the criteria of "sensitive/critical infrastructure", they would care about it… a lot. The authorities that govern such things don't think "It doesn't matter, they're just kids taking some photos" - they're thinking "Holy s*** f*** - how and why did the person infiltrate this major road bridge or major city cable/telecom tunnel", they're thinking "If this 20 year old kid with a camera can bypass our security system and get here, what's stopping someone with nefarious purposes getting in here and f*****g s*** up?". I hope this does illustrate the point of why you wouldn't post a photo from such a location, i.e. because someone care's about the location to lock it up, increase security, contact the relevant authorities and if you are the relevant authorities arrest and prosecute - so at the end of the day you've got arrested explorers, awesome locations that you and others regularly explore no longer access (and hence enjoy - which means taking photos of for even private consumption) or accessible beyond a point of acceptable risk (a very subjective scale, I know).
And there we go, I've made this message far more extensive then I had originally intended to and at times I've put a lot of my personal subjective opinion in, even if said opinion(s) are based on actual events that have happened due to the posting of photos online.
I understand that it's most likely futile to attempt and persuade someone who perceives themselves as a photographer first and an explorer second, such as Mpi for example (sorry to single you out bud
). I've dealt several people before (even in our beloved, super duper elitist Cave Clan - can you believe that?? ) who define themselves as above to the point where most of them send that "they didn't care how they got into location even if it made it harder/impossible for the next person to get in, as long as they got their picture (N.B I'm not presuming that you have the same view Mpi). I can understand why they would think like that given that their intentions & motivations are to take an amazing photo and in the end display this photo publicly as that is what most photographers do. Then you have graffiti artists who are actually interested in leave their impact and changing what was their before. Finally you have motivations such as mine, which are to preserve the location while maintaining access (and to find a cool spot to have a few drinks - which ill admit is a tad more selfish ). So yes, I understand when people say that there are a bunch of different user groups who visit these locations and at the end of the day we are all trespassing so I/we shouldn't get so high and mighty and try to police what other people do. However at the end all of us are going to keep doing our thing regardless of what people say, but the fact remains that graff directly damages locations and their access (I love a bit of graff in abandoned buildings etc, basically anywhere it won't get that location locked down) and photography when posted online certainly has the potential to directly and/or indirectly affect future access to the location - which obviously my own and the "predominately explorer" type motivation is in direct opposition about, so whether I want to or not I'm probably going to say something given that if I didn't have said intention then I wouldn't be up on that roof in the first place. So yeah, I will do my best to both inform and hopefully persuade said person(s) to also adopt & put into practice my (and yes a majority of the Clan's) views and practices in regards to online. Even if you do care about preserving locations, I understand that it can be difficult to distinguish and discriminate what is and isn't suitable - an example can be seen above where I claim that while this abandoned building would be ok to post online will this other one wouldn't. Hell it's one of the issues that even in the Cave Clan there is ALOT of differing opinions and debate over. Perhaps your new to the scene and your only point of urbex reference is someone's flickr/facebook page, or UEGA and as you're not in the C/C and therefore haven't been subjected to a Code of Ethics/Guidelines, you're just doing what you see others doing around you. It's for these people that I believe Spoz's original intended audience were mainly for. As Keve mentioned: "No one likes being told what to do" and fair enough, that seems to be a common humanly attribute. There are however a lot of us who are open to alternative ideas/opinions, even if its only to discuss them in contrast with their views. As long as someone's alternative ideas are based upon "what you've actually experienced" as a result of these actions as opposed to merely "what you think will happen", then I'm all ears!
Even though there are some prime examples on UEGA here in Brisbane that I see as problematic, the main reason that I'm posting here is predominately because in recent times there has been a ton of stuff in Australia (and in particular Brisbane) that I/we don't consider to be suitable for public consumption and simply put I'm quite confident in saying that UEGA would be the first point of contact for newer explorers - so it's certainly not a Clan vs UEGA thing like someone has suggested. Also following on for that, I absolutely LOVE it when I hear of non clan explorers busting some rad sites, whether it's one that I have explored or one that I "found (on behalf of the clan)" myself - as long as they didn't break their way in, vandalise or steal from and of course post photos online if the place is dodgy. So our view certainly isn't based on any "Clan based elitism" that "outsiders" are exploring OUR (*sarcasm) locations - like someone also suggested. I can honestly say that some of the funnest exploring experiences have been when we have knocked into non clan explorers at a location. So I hope I can convince those of you who have said such things that our motivation behind all of our opinions is not that. Also someone managed something about Dsankt posting stuff back in the day that according to our rules he shouldn't be posting now. Since the beginning of the clan almost 30 years ago things have constantly changed. Due to a myriad of reasons we've come to learn time and time that once suitable to post yesterday, isn't suitable today - all of which is a direct result of real world consequences. I'll touch on that again later.
Another thing to mention is that compared to Cave Clan UEGA is missing one big thing; the social aspect of group exploring. Sure some of you guys explore together regularly and you even do group meet ups. However CC as a group or community is different in that it predominately exists to explore with a regular group of people that you come to know and trust. Sure at the end of a day a ton of us do smaller hardcore stuff such as finding new locations - which in itself serves a social purpose of having new locations to take people to - but at its heart the purpose of the group is to explore with other people, whether it be having a planned expo, a new explorers meet up, or travelling interstate for Clannies or GTA's. I believe that could be a possible reason as to why some of you simply don't understand or just don't agree re keeping dodgy stuff secure and explorable, because you're haven't experienced that level of sociality ingrained in exploration. Or maybe I'm wrong. I can only look at the potential evidence that has presented itself with Keve and Draper. As they mentioned before meeting us & joining the clan they had a Facebook site and would pretty much just post anything and everything as they didn't know any better and didn't see a problem with it - because they had known nothing else and simply put at the time didn't have the personal experience to show them the issues that come with such a thing. Either way they met up with us, joined the clan down the track and came around to our way of thinking. They're both smart people so I don't think it's fair that they were brainwashed (perhaps just a bit influenced by the thread of finger chopping!:P). They've now been in the clan for over a year, have both attended Clannies and GTAs, explored with interstaters, found new locations to contribute to the group - the sum of which is that they've added a social aspect to their exploring lives that they previously didn't have. It's also refreshing to see the members that at the start wouldn't attend an expo without their camera in tow and taking photos more then they socialised. Now most of the time they'll just rock up with a 6 pack or what have you in lieu of their camera - so we must be doing something right… Or maybe that's just because they can't actually post anything online, so they figure "What's the point? - May as well just get pissed then":P. In addition, I'm sure the fact that they've since seen the indirect effect of posting a photo online and having the location damaged because of said public exposure also helped them see the value in keeping things off-line.
Ok so this post has far deviated from what I had originally intended to type and much, much longer - so I do apologise for that and I appreciate anyone that has taken the time to read or even just scroll through this post. If I had the effort I would bother to go back and compress it, but I don't so I hope I haven't repeated myself too much - I wrote this post sporadically over a few days while at work, so it probably jumps around a bit. I guess while typing this I've tried to be pretty answer any follow up questions and/or rebuttals that I think you may have in advance, to save me having to respond to much and this conversation lasting more then it needs be, especially seeing that it was an old (and presumably by others a finished) one. If you've made it this far there's one last thought (I promise/hope) to ponder please:
I can accept that all opinion is ultimately bias to some extent and even though the one that I am advocating is commonly shared through out the clan, the fact remains that said opinion has been formed by the direct observation of our own past actions, i.e ultimately OUR OWN MISTAKES that we have made in the almost 30 years since the clan started (and trust me, there has been ALOT) and the negative consequences that these have had on our locations. Therefore, ultimately our current policy is inevitably the direct product of all of this (and IMO the solution of course). Not to mention that it has been thought up, discussed by all clan members - and most importantly re-assessed and updated as time goes by - as it is an ever changing issue. Does all of this objectify our opinion or give us any authority over the subject? I'd like to that it does, or that at the very least it gives us some legitimacy and a "code" to follow. But only in the way that as mentioned we have been around and already made the same mistakes - so like it or not we are an authority on the subject. I know some of us do come across as if we are trying to forcefully impose our opinion on people (puts hand up) but if at the end of the day we stop one person from either directly or indirectly trashing a location or getting it locked up for EVERYONE etc, then I think it's worth being seen as an elitist clan prick
. Most importantly to everyone, even if you don't believe us or just downright disagree with us - I hope that you at least bring away a better understanding of our motivations and intentions for not posting (and as you've seen trying to help other people such as yourselves think likewise) dodgy stuff online and don't merely think we are doing it to be secretive for the sole purpose of being secretive.
Last edited by Audacia-N on 17 Apr 2014, 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Audacia of the Brisbane branch of the Cave Clan.
Last edited by Audacia-N on 17 Apr 2014, 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Audacia of the Brisbane branch of the Cave Clan.
I read it all and will probably read again! I do mostly agree with the sentiment, and certainly do not want to see locations spoiled for the rest of us. Though UEGA is what it is, we are always happy to take suggestions on board and make positive changes.
Let me stress; the 'report' function should be used to highlight when a post may reveal a sensitive location etc. Any member can report a post, and explain to our mods why it should be removed from the public forum. Our mods (myself included) are not always aware of the particular sensitivities of a set of pics, or description of a site.
So instead of members replying to a post, commenting on the its revealing nature, or lengthy debates on this subject; a 'report' with a short explanation would be more useful, and actioned promptly.
Now, going to read your post again!
Thanks for you input mate
Really glad to hear that, I'll try to be more pro-active if I see something too. Cheers.Nuggs wrote:Let me stress; the 'report' function should be used to highlight when a post may reveal a sensitive location etc. Any member can report a post, and explain to our mods why it should be removed from the public forum. Our mods (myself included) are not always aware of the particular sensitivities of a set of pics, or description of a site.
)
I put a "No Trespassing" sign on the fence. Now no one will enter.
Well, this post certainly reinforces the opinions of those people.Audacia-N wrote:so in short I'm an elitist member of a group that is already considered elitist to begin with by some people outside the clan.
I'm sure you realise elitist != elite.
There are very few, if any, 'sensitive' locations posted on UEGA. You'd probably be best taking this post to tumblr or Instagram or something.
I think you have hit the nail on the head when speaking about the difference between people in the CC and people who are not.
I have been going back and forth for around 2yrs now trying to meet up with the CC for the exact reason you noted. To meet up with people to explore and share new locations.
However, I rely on publicly posted locations to explore or finding irregular stuff I see in newspapers or drive past. I would much prefer to find places before they are posted publicly and destroyed, but it seems the decision is not in my hands.
And so many places has gone from existence including the lolly factory, gas plant and printing firm near my old primary school. Can't even find pics of them online, hence the reason I take pics now before it gets lost. Will need to check the local library now if they still have something.
Such a long post to read. I'm going to have to re-read your post later...
Just a harmless explorer. No need to waste taxes checking me
There are very few good locations left in Brisbane too, but in the last couple of months alone it's not been pretty what has been put up here for anyone to see. Plus there might be a few more people reading this, better than contacting one single person on Flickr or wherever.aydun wrote:There are very few, if any, 'sensitive' locations posted on UEGA. You'd probably be best taking this post to tumblr or Instagram or something.
I can think of a couple of examples of very poor form, re posting infrastructure on here which I won't bring up specifically for obvious reasons.
I put a "No Trespassing" sign on the fence. Now no one will enter.